1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:10,270 preroll music 2 00:00:10,270 --> 00:00:13,240 Swiss German would be an option for me. 3 00:00:13,240 --> 00:00:19,660 English, because you know the Swiss don't speak proper German. 4 00:00:19,660 --> 00:00:30,439 My six year old digital native is telling people rather proud 5 00:00:30,439 --> 00:00:34,390 that his dad invented the fastest internet in Switzerland. 6 00:00:34,390 --> 00:00:36,120 It's called Fiber7. 7 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:38,500 *applause* 8 00:00:38,500 --> 00:00:41,220 Thank you. 9 00:00:41,220 --> 00:00:46,740 While we went to Greece for vacation, I was in a target conflict, because I had to 10 00:00:46,740 --> 00:00:55,500 explain him why he couldn't watch YouTube. I mean Greece, you know it's maybe a bit 11 00:00:55,500 --> 00:01:02,140 difficult, but as a matter of fact, here in Hamburg it's not any better. I'm next 12 00:01:02,140 --> 00:01:12,659 door in the hotel InterCity and they offer "free wifi" with 256 kbit/s. If you want 13 00:01:12,659 --> 00:01:22,899 5 Mbit Internet, you pay 8 Euros extra, per day. So this is where we are in 2015. 14 00:01:22,899 --> 00:01:30,369 A few words about me: I'm married, one son as I said. He was born 2009. He was able 15 00:01:30,369 --> 00:01:42,829 to unlock the iPhone with the age of 17 months. No one showed him how. My early 16 00:01:42,829 --> 00:01:48,700 connection with digital techniques was about 1978 when I was playing with these 17 00:01:48,700 --> 00:01:58,139 chips 7400. Who knows them? Raise your hand. Few, thanks. Later on I did an 18 00:01:58,139 --> 00:02:05,939 apprenticeship as a Fernmelde- and Elektronikapparatemonteur. And I started 19 00:02:05,939 --> 00:02:12,709 to do IT business about 1991. And 1996 – almost 20 years ago – we started with 20 00:02:12,709 --> 00:02:22,810 Linux stuff. My fist Linux was Suse 4.2 In the year 2000 we started with Init7 21 00:02:22,810 --> 00:02:29,459 and later on I became president of the SwissIX association. This is an 22 00:02:29,459 --> 00:02:34,030 association which runs an internet exchange. I had also my time in a startup 23 00:02:34,030 --> 00:02:41,920 called Zattoo. It's a network architecture OTT IP television. Besides, I need a 24 00:02:41,920 --> 00:02:47,980 hobby, so I'm also a politician for the social democrats in my city parliament, 25 00:02:47,980 --> 00:02:55,799 already 8 years. Then I started with the other hobby, Fiber7 as you know. Oh 26 00:02:55,799 --> 00:03:01,049 besides, I was also working in an internet expert group of the social democrats 27 00:03:01,049 --> 00:03:12,420 Switzerland. The internet paper was adopted earlier this month by the national 28 00:03:12,420 --> 00:03:18,299 Delegiertenversammlung. I don't know what this is in English. So, buffering sucks. 29 00:03:18,299 --> 00:03:23,599 Ladies and Gentlemen, This talk is not about Deutsche Telekom. It's not about 30 00:03:23,599 --> 00:03:29,519 peering. It's not about interconnection. It's about these thousands and millions 31 00:03:29,519 --> 00:03:36,280 of youngsters out there which want to watch YouTube in HD resolution without 32 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:44,340 buffering. So let's quickly look at the reason why YouTube and all the other video 33 00:03:44,340 --> 00:03:51,120 buffers. It's usually lack of bandwidth. If you have a two Meg DSL or if you have 34 00:03:51,120 --> 00:04:02,120 a InterCity free wifi with 250 kilobits, so HD video is not possible. Sometimes 35 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:08,680 they have old PCs, so CPU power is an issue these days no longer relevant. 36 00:04:08,680 --> 00:04:14,040 WiFi quality sucks sometimes. This is rather an individual issue. And sometimes 37 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:23,110 we have an over-subscription of the shared node – mainly in cable networks. Streaming 38 00:04:23,110 --> 00:04:29,919 Source can be too far away. If you stream from the US, it doesn't really go well. 39 00:04:29,919 --> 00:04:36,120 That's why we have so many CDN, Content Delivery Network systems close to the 40 00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:43,620 end-users. Then adaptive streaming can be advantage, but also disadvantage. You 41 00:04:43,620 --> 00:04:50,919 cannot turn it off. When you watch HD and the connection sucks you just cannot keep 42 00:04:50,919 --> 00:04:59,669 it on HD. It just drops to SD or lower resolution. It works, yes. But Claire 43 00:04:59,669 --> 00:05:06,080 Underwood in low res is not so cool. Routing algorithm issues – sometimes it's 44 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:10,830 a mismatch of client and server. If your client is assigned to the wrong CDN 45 00:05:10,830 --> 00:05:17,520 server, then it's also slow. Anycast routing is a trick sometimes. Last but not 46 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:26,220 least the most important thing: It's oversubscribed interconnections. We go 47 00:05:26,220 --> 00:05:33,389 back quickly to the old days. The caller pays. You call your mother in law and you 48 00:05:33,389 --> 00:05:39,240 talk with her. While she talks with you for 45 minutes and you say hello and 49 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:46,250 goodbye, you still pay the call. *laughter* 50 00:05:46,250 --> 00:05:53,169 So with YouTube it's not any different. You click YouTube and then YouTube talks 51 00:05:53,169 --> 00:06:00,860 to you for hours maybe and then you say goodbye, basically. So is the broadband 52 00:06:00,860 --> 00:06:06,430 customer calling the YouTube server or is it vice-verca? Is the YouTube server 53 00:06:06,430 --> 00:06:13,240 calling the broadband customer? Probably it's the broadband customer who calls. 54 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:19,319 But still the data is flowing from the server to the client. But the client is 55 00:06:19,319 --> 00:06:24,319 causing the traffic, because he is requesting the traffic. And if we look at 56 00:06:24,319 --> 00:06:41,979 the structure of the internet, we have basically the end-user to the right. We 57 00:06:41,979 --> 00:06:48,740 have – Here is the provider network and the end-user is only connected to the 58 00:06:48,740 --> 00:06:53,490 provider's network. On the left side we have all the content in the internet. 59 00:06:53,490 --> 00:07:03,080 We have the media and video and streaming and torrent and you name it. But there is 60 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:12,039 always only one way going to the end-user. It's the yellow marked interconnection 61 00:07:12,039 --> 00:07:23,740 points and there is no way around them. This basically means, the provider can 62 00:07:23,740 --> 00:07:32,019 monopolize the end-customer. At least as long as he is connected or subscribed. 63 00:07:32,019 --> 00:07:44,389 There is no alternative way. So this gives the provider a position of power. On the 64 00:07:44,389 --> 00:07:50,400 other hand these interconnection points used to be - for a long period of time - 65 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:55,960 so called zero settlement interconnections and they are basically the foundation of 66 00:07:55,960 --> 00:08:01,300 the internet. Without zero settlement peering, without interconnection the 67 00:08:01,300 --> 00:08:09,199 internet wouldn't exist as we know it. The broadband provider, mainly the 68 00:08:09,199 --> 00:08:14,879 incumbent, the ex-monopolist, :or large cable operators, they tend to become more 69 00:08:14,879 --> 00:08:22,449 and m ore restrictive to provide sufficient interconnection capacity. Not upgrading 70 00:08:22,449 --> 00:08:29,800 interconnection to the requirements is very common these days and it's a passive 71 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:41,289 aggressive behavior. So many providers, to name a few: Deutsche Telekom. They just 72 00:08:41,289 --> 00:08:46,810 do nothing. They just wait. And the end customers are suffering. Buffering is very 73 00:08:46,810 --> 00:08:54,920 common, especially during prime-time. This is basically what the main topic of this 74 00:08:54,920 --> 00:09:00,320 conference is: It's a gated community. The provider creates a gated community 75 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:12,190 for his own end customers. So as I said before: The data is flowing from the 76 00:09:12,190 --> 00:09:17,790 server, from the video server to the end customer. It's about 50 times more traffic 77 00:09:17,790 --> 00:09:26,520 flowing to the client and the usual traffic ratio we have for a broadband 78 00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:32,839 provider is 1:5 or 1:10 So they're pulling about 10 times more traffic towards the 79 00:09:32,839 --> 00:09:40,059 end-customer. Then we have this interconnection policy. So they don't do 80 00:09:40,059 --> 00:09:47,710 anything. As I said before, they just over-subscribe the existing 81 00:09:47,710 --> 00:09:54,300 interconnection. And if you want to upgrade you have to have a traffic ratio 82 00:09:54,300 --> 00:10:03,620 of about 1 : 1.5 to 1.3 But no video stream service can deliver traffic and 83 00:10:03,620 --> 00:10:11,490 also maintain the traffic ratio. No content provider can. So all they can do 84 00:10:11,490 --> 00:10:17,070 is: They can pay money to get upgraded. And if they don't pay, data is stuck in 85 00:10:17,070 --> 00:10:28,670 congestion and the clients are suffering, seeing the buffering sign. Large broadband 86 00:10:28,670 --> 00:10:33,440 providers, such as the incumbents and cable providers, they want to get paid 87 00:10:33,440 --> 00:10:41,440 twice. They are able to force the money due to the temporary monopoly - as I 88 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:46,720 explained. And they can ask money from the end-customer and on the other hand also 89 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:53,839 from the content. This is called double sided market. And if they don't pay, the 90 00:10:53,839 --> 00:10:59,450 content is not paying, this is what we see. And sometimes – as a side-note – the 91 00:10:59,450 --> 00:11:09,139 end-customer pays, but still sees this. But IP interconnection would be cheap. 92 00:11:09,139 --> 00:11:14,800 The business cost per broadband customer is just a few cents per month And if the 93 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:21,350 provider would invest this, people would be happy. On top content providers are 94 00:11:21,350 --> 00:11:29,430 easy to deal for peering or provide cache servers etc. So please talk to our 95 00:11:29,430 --> 00:11:36,920 community fellows of Akamai, Apple, Amazon, Facebook, Google, Limelight, 96 00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:46,230 Netflix, T is not Telekom. It's Twitch. And Zattoo and a lot of others. So traffic 97 00:11:46,230 --> 00:11:55,320 congestion is costly. I took a random Google search and was looking for how much 98 00:11:55,320 --> 00:12:02,399 traffic is actually costing. And "Die Welt" showed a result: "Staus kosten in 99 00:12:02,399 --> 00:12:15,320 jedem Haushalt 509€/Jahr" So my assumption was: If a traffic jam is costing money, 100 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:21,209 probably a data traffic jam is also costing some money. But I figured that no 101 00:12:21,209 --> 00:12:30,589 one was really exploring that field, yet. So I thought I'm going to do a little 102 00:12:30,589 --> 00:12:35,449 "Milchbüechlirächnig" *laughter* 103 00:12:35,449 --> 00:12:43,190 *applause* When I was a child, the milk man came 104 00:12:43,190 --> 00:12:49,620 every morning and we just put our order into the Milchbüechli and he put the milk 105 00:12:49,620 --> 00:12:55,130 into the box outside of the house. By the end of the month, we went to the shop 106 00:12:55,130 --> 00:13:03,829 and payed our Milchbüechlirächnig. So this is my quick calculation: We have about 30 107 00:13:03,829 --> 00:13:09,600 million broadband connections in Germany. I assume that everybody is waiting for one 108 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:15,830 minute accumulated while watching Netflix, YouTube, whatever. Probably this is far 109 00:13:15,830 --> 00:13:22,610 too less. Who thinks one minute is fine, or – Who thinks one minute is not enough? 110 00:13:22,610 --> 00:13:30,760 Oh ok, so let's stick with one minute for the calculation. And I also assumed that 111 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:41,470 5€ / hour waiting is a good salary. If you think, 5€ is not enough, you can adapt the 112 00:13:41,470 --> 00:13:46,350 calculation. This is called "Reservationslohn". I have no clue what it 113 00:13:46,350 --> 00:13:55,350 means, but this was on Wikipedia, when you take a job or refuse a job, how much would 114 00:13:55,350 --> 00:14:01,230 be the value for the spare time So this is my calculation: If you wait one minute per 115 00:14:01,230 --> 00:14:08,979 day, this is 6 hours per year. If you multiply this with the 5€, every broadband 116 00:14:08,979 --> 00:14:23,670 customer would loose 30€ per year. This sums up – with 30 million broadband 117 00:14:23,670 --> 00:14:29,610 subscribers – to 900 million Euros per year. This is the economic damage in 118 00:14:29,610 --> 00:14:40,480 Germany per year. *applause* 119 00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:46,889 As we can asume that a large part of the buffering is caused by the insufficiant 120 00:14:46,889 --> 00:14:50,469 interconnection, especially during prime time when everybody wants to watch 121 00:14:50,469 --> 00:14:57,759 Netflix. This is also a result of the restrictive peering policy of the incumbent 122 00:14:57,759 --> 00:15:05,269 and large cable operators and the ability for them to force some extra money out 123 00:15:05,269 --> 00:15:11,199 of these double sided market power as I explained. They probably would gain a few 124 00:15:11,199 --> 00:15:17,220 millions. I don't have exact figures but they assume it is probably some ten twenty 125 00:15:17,220 --> 00:15:25,589 thirty millions per year, they could force through this market power. On the other 126 00:15:25,589 --> 00:15:32,469 hand we have the damage of 900 Million Euro per year and I mean this is like a 127 00:15:32,469 --> 00:15:40,190 - how do you say that? - like a imbalance. So my conclusion in democratic countries 128 00:15:40,190 --> 00:15:46,149 like western Europe, the economic gain of a multibillion company at the expense of 129 00:15:46,149 --> 00:15:53,740 the general public is commonly not tolerated. The next question is basically 130 00:15:53,740 --> 00:16:00,310 following the previous talk of Thomas: When will the regulators wake up and force 131 00:16:00,310 --> 00:16:05,420 every market participant to cooperate in peering and interconnection because the 132 00:16:05,420 --> 00:16:10,870 end user is suffering, the public is suffering. Zero settlement peering - as I 133 00:16:10,870 --> 00:16:17,929 explained - is rather common. Of course the "Deutsche Telekom Lobby" would tell 134 00:16:17,929 --> 00:16:24,420 otherwise, this is clear. The unbalanced traffic should no longer be used to refuse 135 00:16:24,420 --> 00:16:31,370 peering and also disputes about the interconnection should be resolved rather 136 00:16:31,370 --> 00:16:39,139 quick. My case against swisscom is taking years already and still no end and no 137 00:16:39,139 --> 00:16:44,449 light at the end of the tunnel. Then, last but not least we should have broadband 138 00:16:44,449 --> 00:16:53,079 providers, must be committed to the interest of their own user customer 139 00:16:53,079 --> 00:17:03,529 base. As I said, Telekom managed to get paid twice because of their market power 140 00:17:03,529 --> 00:17:09,950 and other Telecoms, such as Telecom Hungaria or Swisscom, they use Deutsche 141 00:17:09,950 --> 00:17:16,960 Telekom and their market power as a leverage to force their also restrictive 142 00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:22,440 peering policy and the regulators so far don't do much. I quote here Marc Furrer, 143 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:28,780 this is the chief of ComCom Switzerland: "Nur ein fauler Regulator ist ein guter 144 00:17:28,780 --> 00:17:31,500 Regulator". *laughing* 145 00:17:31,500 --> 00:17:41,000 Thank you! Questions? *applause* 146 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:47,100 Herald: Okay, thank you Fredy and lets have Thomas back up on stage and we're 147 00:17:47,100 --> 00:17:53,880 gonna take questions please. There is actually more than the mics I said before, 148 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:59,690 there is two right up on the top and there is three in each area. So if you please 149 00:17:59,690 --> 00:18:05,920 line up if you have any questions and ask and please speak into the mic, we need 150 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:12,480 your questions on tape, and those who are leaving now: Do it silently please. 151 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:23,050 Okay, first question, over there! Q: I have a question for Thomas: 152 00:18:23,050 --> 00:18:26,900 From your talk it sounds like you did a lot of work. Can you tell us a little bit 153 00:18:26,900 --> 00:18:31,010 about the budgeting, that goes into having a team like that? 154 00:18:31,010 --> 00:18:39,320 T: Yeah, so, (?) is a commission of 12 NGOs which have all their independent budget. 155 00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:45,820 There is no fixed budget for the work that we have been doing as a whole. All of them 156 00:18:45,820 --> 00:18:52,640 have transparency reports. So I can not really speak for the budget of (?) 157 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:58,080 or (?). The organization where I am based in Austria got a grant from the 158 00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:07,070 media democracy foundation from 10.000€ and money from Netflix, 10.000€ also and 159 00:19:07,070 --> 00:19:10,940 we used both for development and paying for the Faxes. Because in the second run 160 00:19:10,940 --> 00:19:17,480 of the (?) the provider that it was revering to was no longer paying. 161 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:23,380 Otherwise the funding in general about digital rights in Europe is awfully low. 162 00:19:23,380 --> 00:19:28,650 So if you compare it to the U.S. where you had double digit millions going into the 163 00:19:28,650 --> 00:19:36,020 lobbying it is ridiculous what resources we have here in Europe and we are thinking 164 00:19:36,020 --> 00:19:40,840 about making a donation to (?) new safety internet, but again that's 165 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:47,670 complicated because you have twelve NGOs with very different activity scales. Like 166 00:19:47,670 --> 00:19:51,890 some of them do a lot, others not so much. So how would you divide the money? 167 00:19:51,890 --> 00:19:55,020 These are unresolved questions, that we are working on right now. If you wanna 168 00:19:55,020 --> 00:20:00,580 support us with independent funding, just donate to the individual organizations. 169 00:20:00,580 --> 00:20:06,820 (?), Initiative für Netzfreiheit, are probably the ones I would mention 170 00:20:06,820 --> 00:20:11,370 most, because they have done most of the work (?) as well but they generally 171 00:20:11,370 --> 00:20:14,410 have a lot of funding from the U.S., so I don't think they need that much. 172 00:20:14,410 --> 00:20:18,390 Q: But to summarize, I saw a picture of your team. I saw all the work you did. 173 00:20:18,390 --> 00:20:24,400 You did that for 20.000€? T: No. I never got a cent. I was payed by 174 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:26,230 (?) for four month when I was working 175 00:20:26,230 --> 00:20:30,060 in Brussels with the directive (?) but otherwise this was mostly free 176 00:20:30,060 --> 00:20:35,520 time. I got my expenses covered for travel but other than that I am doing this in my 177 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:46,050 spare time. Also now unemployed.. *applause* 178 00:20:46,050 --> 00:20:50,760 I work for data protection NGOs, they are allowing me to do a lot of my stuff for 179 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:54,290 the (?) charity. Herald: Well already thanks. We are doing 180 00:20:54,290 --> 00:21:00,430 it for peanuts. Okay, nr. 1 go ahead! Mic 1: Yeah, hello, hi Thomas, thanks a 181 00:21:00,430 --> 00:21:07,430 lot for the work, that's great. I have a question about the involvement of the 182 00:21:07,430 --> 00:21:13,310 business the angels (?) and the companies: What is the reason, what do you think why 183 00:21:13,310 --> 00:21:20,980 they came so late into this discussion in Germany. What probably can we do to change 184 00:21:20,980 --> 00:21:26,710 this in the future because I think that's a.. they are great allies in this fight. 185 00:21:26,710 --> 00:21:33,450 Thomas: That's exactly the right question. Sadly in Europe you have no organized.. 186 00:21:33,450 --> 00:21:40,620 voice for startups or for SMEs (?) when it comes to digital rights issues and you 187 00:21:40,620 --> 00:21:44,040 would have to work for them to get them involved in the debate. They were really 188 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:50,570 late to the party and then again mostly activated through US networks. So the 189 00:21:50,570 --> 00:21:55,670 connection between the civil rights scene here and the business scene, particularly 190 00:21:55,670 --> 00:22:01,400 the one which is organized in Brussels with european umbrellas is very weak. So 191 00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:07,230 everything you can do there through strengthen this connection would be great. 192 00:22:07,230 --> 00:22:10,890 But I don't have those business contacts. I got a few people involved in the first 193 00:22:10,890 --> 00:22:15,950 reading stuff but we definitely need more people that act as multipliers to get more 194 00:22:15,950 --> 00:22:21,730 companies involved particularly now when we enter into a new face with the (?) 195 00:22:21,730 --> 00:22:30,060 guidelines. We no longer need the loud arguments of many people, we need more the 196 00:22:30,060 --> 00:22:33,740 arguments from the business side, from the universities, from those people who run 197 00:22:33,740 --> 00:22:38,020 networks, these arguments are better suited to make a difference with the 198 00:22:38,020 --> 00:22:43,920 regulators. Freddy: And to add: Don't underestimate 199 00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:49,180 the influence of the lobbies, of the big names, the telecoms and the liberty 200 00:22:49,180 --> 00:22:56,270 globals, they have a lot of money and they try to influence the politicians as good 201 00:22:56,270 --> 00:23:00,380 as they can. They do a good job from their perspective. 202 00:23:00,380 --> 00:23:07,260 Thomas: You can be sure that the telecoms will have people for all 28 regulators, 203 00:23:07,260 --> 00:23:11,490 now continuously lobbying for an upcoming nine month. Question is: Who is in our 204 00:23:11,490 --> 00:23:17,700 team? Herald: Okay. Thank you. Is there a 205 00:23:17,700 --> 00:23:22,720 question from the internet? Signal angel: Yes, there is a question, 206 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:27,980 it is: Whether peering providers should differentiate between virtual private 207 00:23:27,980 --> 00:23:34,800 network traffic and public traffic and where is the line between internal network 208 00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:41,280 and public internet? Freddy: What should I say.. this is 209 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:49,910 difficult question, I mean basically if you overcommit (?) your backbone then 210 00:23:49,910 --> 00:23:55,650 there is always plenty of traffic or plenty of capacity so there is, there 211 00:23:55,650 --> 00:24:01,740 shouldn't be any differentiation. Networks should provide enough capacity and then 212 00:24:01,740 --> 00:24:12,160 we're good. A common argument from the big names: "Oh we are investing millions 213 00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:18,510 and millions and millions in broadband expand" but unfortunately they stop 214 00:24:18,510 --> 00:24:24,090 investing right at the end of their own backbone so they don't invest any money 215 00:24:24,090 --> 00:24:33,810 beyond their little percentage of the total investment for their interconnections. 216 00:24:33,810 --> 00:24:37,550 Herald: Okay, there is another question at nr. 1? 217 00:24:37,550 --> 00:24:42,830 Mic 1: I have a question about buffering: So the most of the content in the web is 218 00:24:42,830 --> 00:24:50,480 delivered over tcp/ip and will change in the media to something like udp which has 219 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:56,280 lower overhead over tcp, will that change the situation? 220 00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:59,040 Freddy: Not really. Mic 1: No? 221 00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:04,880 Freddy: No. It won't help. I mean packet loss is packet loss regardless whether it 222 00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:14,750 is tcp or udp. Herald: Okay, that was a short answer. Next 223 00:25:14,750 --> 00:25:18,960 question please. Please talk into the mic. Mic: So when I came here, this year, 224 00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:24,950 I had the impression that a digital subscriber line connections not only 225 00:25:24,950 --> 00:25:34,250 bandwidth is bad but also the ping gets up way high. Of course - I mean - at home I 226 00:25:34,250 --> 00:25:40,830 have Fiber7 nowadays so I just thought I got spoiled by fiber connections but I 227 00:25:40,830 --> 00:25:49,080 noticed that ping times went up from, well, couple of years ago 60-80ms from 228 00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:56,330 sites in your neighborhood more or less to nowadays 80-160ms. Where is the 229 00:25:56,330 --> 00:26:00,730 problem there? Freddy: Well the latency is directly 230 00:26:00,730 --> 00:26:07,880 related if the provider is not delivering enough bandwidth, then ping goes up 231 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:15,610 that's a normal behavior of tcp. Mic: So the problem is also at the 232 00:26:15,610 --> 00:26:19,780 interconnection sites? Freddy. Probably yes, most likely, you 233 00:26:19,780 --> 00:26:28,130 can find out if you do traceroute, then you see where, well, there is a long 234 00:26:28,130 --> 00:26:34,520 presentation how to interpret traceroute properly if you look for a (?) traceroute 235 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:40,980 you should find this lecture. But that would probably give some indication. 236 00:26:40,980 --> 00:26:44,770 Mic: Alright, thank you. Herald: Thank you. Next question from 237 00:26:44,770 --> 00:26:48,570 the internet, just in between and then we go back, go ahead. 238 00:26:48,570 --> 00:26:53,570 Signal angel: "Is netflix a gated community by itself?" and "Are you sure 239 00:26:53,570 --> 00:26:58,130 that their interest will align with the movement of net neutrality in the long 240 00:26:58,130 --> 00:27:04,280 run?" Freddy: We should differentiate between 241 00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:10,990 netflix content and netflix internet connections. So for the content I probably 242 00:27:10,990 --> 00:27:16,310 would say: Yes, but I am not the expert. This would be then be layer 7 in the OSI 243 00:27:16,310 --> 00:27:23,220 model. I am talking here on layer 3, this is content agnostic. Netflix, they are one 244 00:27:23,220 --> 00:27:30,350 of the good guys because they really help to deliver the packets. I know them 245 00:27:30,350 --> 00:27:37,370 personally a few fellows from the peering community. They are the good guys, 246 00:27:37,370 --> 00:27:41,170 definitely. Thomas: Just also to ask this question 247 00:27:41,170 --> 00:27:45,820 for the european debate, Netflix was one of the good guys in the US and they also 248 00:27:45,820 --> 00:27:50,050 supported of course the european movement but again they are so big that I wouldn't 249 00:27:50,050 --> 00:27:55,160 really trust them as an ally because they could also pay, they could also survive in 250 00:27:55,160 --> 00:28:01,290 a double sided market and for them in the growing emerging markets like Europe where 251 00:28:01,290 --> 00:28:06,420 they just have started, it's probably risky to allow for this new type of anti 252 00:28:06,420 --> 00:28:13,000 net neutrality business models but in the consumer side when net neutrality is seen 253 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:18,510 as an end user issue I think so far their interest mostly align. On interconnection 254 00:28:18,510 --> 00:28:22,410 they have their own interests of course. Freddy: So I can say: Netflix is 255 00:28:22,410 --> 00:28:28,390 definitely paying Deutsche Telekom otherwise no single Deutsche Telekom user 256 00:28:28,390 --> 00:28:33,190 would be able to watch any movie on netflix! 257 00:28:33,190 --> 00:28:38,060 Herald: Okay, we are short for time so please last two questions. Number two 258 00:28:38,060 --> 00:28:40,510 first. Keep it short please. Talk into the mic. 259 00:28:40,510 --> 00:28:45,450 Mic 2: Regarding the first talk: What is the.. do you have an explanation for the 260 00:28:45,450 --> 00:28:51,640 behavior of the european commission in behave of the net neutrality debate? I 261 00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:59,150 especially think of the behavior of Günther Oettinger who repeatedly said his 262 00:28:59,150 --> 00:29:06,590 ridiculous lie of a "net neutrality kills" and he repeated it again and again and 263 00:29:06,590 --> 00:29:14,580 again even if there was no reason behind it. And do you have an explanation for 264 00:29:14,580 --> 00:29:18,100 this behavior of the commission and Junker and this. 265 00:29:18,100 --> 00:29:21,690 Thomas: For that argument, we had this great YouTube video "net neutrality kills" 266 00:29:21,690 --> 00:29:26,050 If you search it you will find it or "Netz Neutralität tötet" in German. That 267 00:29:26,050 --> 00:29:30,040 deconstructs this argument of Oettinger. But in general and you can go back to the 268 00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:34,670 previous commissioner Neelie Kroes that I showed our (?) suspicion is that the deal 269 00:29:34,670 --> 00:29:38,500 was that the telecom industry has to give up a little bit of their profits when it 270 00:29:38,500 --> 00:29:42,920 comes to roaming but on the other side they gain a lot of future profits on 271 00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:47,080 demolishment (?) of net neutrality and so it was like "okay we need a (?) argument" 272 00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:54,090 Neelie Kroes also needs a quick win at the end of her career and this was again like 273 00:29:54,090 --> 00:29:58,540 you take a little bit there and put it there for the telecoms industry. And 274 00:29:58,540 --> 00:30:04,340 Oettinger is a big industrial favor guy, he is always for big business. 275 00:30:04,340 --> 00:30:07,860 Herald: Okay, short for time, last question, number one. 276 00:30:07,860 --> 00:30:12,890 Mic 1: Hi, so what strategy should a ISP use when their capacity on their backbones 277 00:30:12,890 --> 00:30:18,880 is fully loaded. Like first in first out or what is your idea about that, because 278 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:22,540 the capacity is limited, so when there is so much traffic that everything is stuck. 279 00:30:22,540 --> 00:30:25,090 Freddy: Upgrade! Thomas: Yes, invest in the network! 280 00:30:25,090 --> 00:30:31,220 Freddy: I mean sorry a 10G port is now some 3000€ including optic and cross 281 00:30:31,220 --> 00:30:40,080 connect. It's not that much. Upgrade! Herald: Okay, thank you! 282 00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:41,700 *applause* 283 00:30:41,700 --> 00:30:51,640 *postroll music*